LEAD Chat Transcript: New Media Poetics and Poetry
with Loss Glazier
Click here to download pdf version.

Link to Loss Glazier's essay: "Code as Language" (LEA Vol 14 No 05 - 06 2006)

The "Leonardo Electronic Almanac Discussion" (LEAD) accompanies selected LEA Special Issues. LEAD has two components a live chat session with LEA authors and artists and a moderated discussion list for readers to engage with the special issue authors.

The following is the transcript from last night's (10 October 2006) chat session with Loss Pequeño Glazier. I deleted a few remarks prior to the start of the chat, but the transcript is otherwise unedited, with the goal of preserve the spontaneity and flow of the chat environment. There's a tremendous amount here of interest to new media poetics. We will archive all the chats and make them available over the web as well. <Sandy Baldwin>

<begin transcript>
[7:01 PM]<sandybaldwin> Well, it's 7pm and I will officially kick things off
[7:01 PM]<sandybaldwin> Hello, and welcome to this chat, a part of Leonardo Electronic Alamanc Discussion (LEAD) and supporting the recent special issue on New Media Poetics.
[7:01 PM]<sandybaldwin> - chris: can you play bass for us during this chat -
[7:02 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> i was trying to figure out how i might do that
[7:02 PM]<sandybaldwin> My name is Sandy Baldwin and I'll be moderating the chat. Hopefully the technology will cooperate!!
[7:02 PM]<sandybaldwin> - it was off and on for those who came yesterday to chat with John Cayley, but so far so good tonight.
[7:02 PM]<sandybaldwin> Tonight, I'm pleased to welcome  Loss Pequeño Glazier, a poet and critic who is synonymous with e-poetry.
[7:02 PM] newmediatim has entered the room.
[7:03 PM]<newmediatim> hi
[7:03 PM]<sandybaldwin> hi! First, perhaps those who are here can introduce themselves?
[7:03 PM]<sandybaldwin> I'm Sandy...
[7:03 PM]<mrowley> hello all, Mari-Lou Rowley here

[7:03 PM]<mIEKAL> mIEKAL here
[7:03 PM]<glazier> I'm Loss
[7:04 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> Chris Funkhouser, NJ
[7:04 PM]<newmediatim> Tim Peterson
[7:04 PM]<mldeed> Martha Deed here
[7:04 PM]<sandybaldwin> OK. Great company. Tim P is the editor of the LEA issue...
[7:04 PM]<glazier> I'm not sure if I've met Martha and Mari-Lou, can they say a word or two about hemeselves?
[7:05 PM]<mrowley> I'm a poet and science writer from saskatoon, sask, canada
[7:05 PM]<mldeed> Loss, you met me in the guise of Millie Niss's chauffeur and mother last September when she spoke to your class.  I write poetry, creative nonfiction and web art.
[7:05 PM]<sandybaldwin> sask, cool. you mentioned ysterday that you've spelunked or at least explored cave techn.?
[7:06 PM]<glazier> Oh yes!
[7:06 PM]<sandybaldwin> I've got a few questions to prompt Loss / get things started - course we can go any which way and I hope the conversation will find it's own shape and direction.
[7:06 PM]<mrowley> yes, a colleague,friend design, engineers and makes art for them.. both for NewMIc and ICICS in Vancouver
[7:06 PM]<sandybaldwin> - would like to hear some about that eventually, cave art
[7:07 PM]<sandybaldwin> OK, Loss, I'm going to jump in: it seems to me the central premise of your essay is
[7:07 PM]<sandybaldwin> that the act of inscription is itself a process of thinking through thought - like the poem as a machine for thinking -
[7:08 PM]<sandybaldwin> am I getting this correctly?

[7:08 PM]<sandybaldwin> And, if there's a connection between inscription and thought, do new modes of inscription (new media) mean a new mode of thought - a new mind as it were?
[7:09 PM]<glazier> Yes, the same way that architecture is not a structure but an idea that the structure exemplies -- it's not about the building itself.
[7:10 PM]<glazier> I'm not sure about new mind but mind over end-product; that's what matters.
[7:10 PM]<sandybaldwin> - where do you see the lineage for this view / poetics?, I mean language poetry, but it's also quite a visual notion I think?
[7:11 PM]<newmediatim> also WCW in the poet thinking with his poem?
[7:11 PM]<glazier> yes, the coming together of language, visual media, media studies, and use of the hands
[7:12 PM]<glazier> yes, for wms, the poem are the gears of thinking
[7:12 PM] shadoof has entered the room.
[7:12 PM]<glazier> after you write the poem, it's not so much you have a poem. you have thought.
[7:12 PM]<sandybaldwin> - hands are interesting, because they seem in between? I mean, neither idea/mind nor object/poem...

[7:13 PM]<sandybaldwin> - hello john
[7:13 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> & hopefully one thought leads to another to another...
[7:13 PM]<glazier> it's the way you can do things with your hands without looking at them or talking to them
[7:13 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> (balpe's infinitude)
[7:13 PM]<glazier> yes, chris
[7:13 PM]<mIEKAL> kinda like typing in a chat
[7:14 PM]<glazier> hands-on
[7:14 PM]<sandybaldwin> i see, so there's a sense of intention into the hands
[7:14 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> dig po

[7:14 PM]<newmediatim> what's the role of the body here in relation to code...there's the obvious metaphor in codework of code as the subconscious...Loss does something like this appeal to you, the replacement of the subconscious with some exterior thing, materiality
[7:14 PM]<sandybaldwin> could you g(loss) this in relation to your dance pieces? I mean, the dancer's bodies - they're in that space of the hand...
[7:14 PM]<glazier> maybe more interesting what the hands do that you don't know about
[7:15 PM]<mrowley> I see an analogy in the apparent randomness of thought that "self -organizes" into a poem, and the self organizing ant colony optimization algorithms

[7:15 PM]<glazier> yes, the body matters
[7:15 PM] * shadoof has changed the subject to: manipulation
[7:15 PM]<newmediatim> ?
[7:15 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> code seems to me so much like a brain thing, though
[7:16 PM]<sandybaldwin> hand it to shadoof -
[7:16 PM]<sandybaldwin> tim
[7:16 PM] * newmediatim has changed the subject to: change your brain, change your life
[7:16 PM] * glazier has changed the subject to: manicuring
[7:17 PM]<sandybaldwin> oops, was asking about the role of depth / subconscious - seems to me a question who is programming the hands as it were, or whether I always know my idea is what gets embodied...

[7:17 PM]<shadoof> laying on of hands with the code underlying
[7:17 PM] sandybaldwin is now known as hang nail.
[7:17 PM] hang nail has entered the room.
[7:17 PM]<glazier> i'm not sure "subconscious" is exactly where
[7:17 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> sandy what do you mena by embodied?
[7:18 PM]<mrowley> and how is embodiement tied into the interface
[7:19 PM]<glazier> Tim, nor unconscious, it seems to me that media get interesting when they're handed over to the medium
[7:19 PM]<glazier> embodiment is crucial
[7:19 PM]<hang nail> ---> my probably misreading of tim's question, I took as addressing this inbetween processes, e.g. underlying codes - which would be a point where there the way you can do things with your hand without looking at them may mean they're no longer yours as it were
[7:19 PM]<newmediatim> So we're talking about something more like a Greenbergian distinction regarding the surface and the support?

[7:20 PM] hang nail is now known as sandyshand.
[7:20 PM] sandyshand has entered the room.
[7:20 PM]<glazier> It's like an abacus
[7:20 PM]<sandyshand> hm, please elaborate "like an abacus"
[7:20 PM] * glazier has changed the subject to: hand-me-down
[7:21 PM]<newmediatim> counting for the very first time
[7:21 PM]<glazier> a tangible rhythm between the hand and the mind that would be interrupted if you thought about it
[7:21 PM]<glazier> you'd lose count!
[7:22 PM]<mrowley> and how much information is inherent in touch.. important in HCI
[7:22 PM]<glazier> so many other tie ins here: digits, digital, computational ...
[7:22 PM]<glazier> What is HCI?

[7:22 PM]<sandyshand> human computer interface
[7:22 PM]<mrowley> human-computer interaction
[7:22 PM]<sandyshand> interaction
[7:22 PM]<sandyshand> yes
[7:23 PM]<glazier> Yes, touch.

[7:23 PM]<sandyshand> interesting how interface design - from the first - vacillates between the mouse / pointer and the keyboard
[7:24 PM]<sandyshand> hand as force / vector vs. as coding / alphanumeric scripter
[7:24 PM]<mIEKAL> interface works best when it disappears
[7:24 PM]<glazier> sleigh of hand!
[7:24 PM]<sandyshand> is this true though? i'm back to tim's question about the unconscious.
[7:24 PM]<sandyshand> best for what?
[7:24 PM]<mIEKAL> revealing content
[7:25 PM]<sandyshand> is there content in the interface - or what if make it the content
[7:25 PM]<mIEKAL> sounds like 90s webart

[7:25 PM]<newmediatim> Loss how do you think about what you call the spectral nature of the medium (a notion I find very compelling) in relation to the materiality thing. I have always struggled with the "materiality of lang" metaphor because it seems to obscure more than clarify, in the sense that it's a metaphor
[7:25 PM]<sandyshand> hee hee
[7:26 PM]<newmediatim> i mean for taxonomic purposes
[7:26 PM]<mIEKAL> I hear Loss talking about performativity when he's talking about the hand, the manual
[7:26 PM]<glazier> In what sense was the spectral?
[7:27 PM]<mIEKAL> how an electronic work can transform the bodies of its performers & it's audience..  such as the dance we saw at UWV
[7:27 PM]<sandyshand> - haunting --
[7:27 PM]<mrowley> but a non-electronic work can do that too

[7:27 PM]<newmediatim> in your essay you say the medium "gives the impression of being impermanent because it requires display or projection to be viewed" . Also bc it changes on the display
[7:28 PM]<glazier> Yes, it's a performance. Time based. Physical (dancers). Without time we don't exist. We are in our bodies.
[7:28 PM]<newmediatim> I mean, when I read langpo I don't get "materiality of lang" so much as I get a really great ear for idiomatic lang and rhetorical gesture. It may be sacreligious to say this
[7:28 PM]<sandyshand> good point marilou: loss are we dealing with a new version of a poetic spectrality always there?
[7:29 PM]<sandyshand> tim - are you asking if spectrality is a better way of thinking this than materiality?
[7:29 PM]<newmediatim> that's one way of putting it, but generally I'm wondering how Loss thinks about this stuff

[7:30 PM]<newmediatim> after I take another bong hit in my hippie abstractions
[7:30 PM]<mrowley> does it has something to do with embodiment - or dis-embodiment?
[7:31 PM]<glazier> There's a photo of one of my dance pieces with the text on the arm of the dancer as well as behind her. Spectrally-embodied.
[7:31 PM]<shadoof> surfaces
[7:31 PM]<mldeed> also--how thinking of the work in spectral or bodily terms alters the intention or the interpretation of the work.
[7:32 PM]<glazier> Both inside and outside the work.

[7:32 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> & it is not just spectral (seen), but heard etc
[7:32 PM]<newmediatim> marks with an awareness of Marx
[7:32 PM]<glazier> Yes, like sound is heard then gone
[7:33 PM]<mrowley> karl or groucho
[7:33 PM]<glazier> on your Marx!
[7:33 PM]<sandyshand> Loss, when you use marks, they are always spectral - if we like this word - for you, i.e. things to live through, inhabit?
[7:34 PM]<sandyshand> the marx pun works, actually, because spectrality references the labor or poetics going into the work - there
[7:34 PM]<sandyshand> is an economy
[7:34 PM]<newmediatim> well it's Loss' pun
[7:34 PM]<glazier> Yes, I am told your entire body has memory of its past and present. These marks are what you live.
[7:35 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> olsonian proprioception?
[7:35 PM]<shadoof> the light falls on the dancer's hand
[7:35 PM]<mIEKAL> I wanna see the sequel

[7:35 PM]<newmediatim> LG, are you a thinking dancer or a dancing thinker, or some third thing?
[7:35 PM]<mIEKAL> your dancer dancing you you transcribing into text
[7:35 PM]<mIEKAL> & you
[7:35 PM]<sandyshand> a thanking dancer
[7:36 PM]<shadoof> who manipulates the light?
[7:36 PM]<shadoof> and how?
[7:36 PM]<glazier> It's just two things happening at once
[7:36 PM]<sandyshand> thinking re marks is thanking bodies in the light
[7:36 PM]<sandyshand> LPG - which two things? light and dance?

[7:37 PM]<glazier> The light passes through the filter of the text
[7:37 PM]<glazier> text as thought and movement as embodiment ... but at the same time
[7:38 PM] * newmediatim has changed the subject to: Learning from Loss Glazier
[7:38 PM]<sandyshand> <how do you change the subject? i've been trying to for half an hour>
[7:38 PM]<newmediatim> lovely weather we're having
[7:39 PM]<shadoof> Psi co. kinetically
[7:39 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> loss this was something i was going after beneath the sheet, projecting the images onto my body, cheers
[7:39 PM]<sandyshand> um, Loss, given this relation of movement/embodiment/text, it seems the dance pieces are a kind of culmination or place you've arrived at - but where to next?
[7:40 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> i'd like to see loss dance!
[7:40 PM]<glazier> inscription is one end of it (coding). performance is the other end of it.
[7:40 PM]<shadoof> still concerned with the 'spectral' under here?

[7:40 PM]<glazier> Yes, Chris, I saw!
[7:40 PM]<shadoof> a ?real connection of light and hand
[7:40 PM]<sandyshand> ooh, i've danced the dance with loss - it is something
[7:41 PM]<shadoof> LPG - where does code dwell?
[7:41 PM]<sandyshand> from john, i hear a question of the medium of the spectral
[7:41 PM]<shadoof> does it manipulate the light?
[7:42 PM]<glazier> Light is very interesting.
[7:42 PM]<sandyshand> - olson wrote to duncan that his poetry [olson

[7:42 PM]<sandyshand> 'olson was lit, illuminated by fire
[7:42 PM]<shadoof> screens and surfaces; REM sleep ...
[7:43 PM]<mrowley> we seem to be dancing around the topic of programming and poetry
[7:43 PM]<sandyshand> - back to never left the unconscious
[7:43 PM]<glazier> There's a relationship between light and time and without either we don't exist.
[7:43 PM]<glazier> So the projection is as material as the projector.
[7:43 PM]<glazier> Yes, screens and surfaces.
[7:43 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> & light is what darkens the dark room
[7:44 PM]<sandyshand> so, simultaneity, back to the notion of a single idea embodied?
[7:44 PM]<sandyshand> the whole set up is a camera lucida
[7:44 PM]<newmediatim> where is the voice in all this
[7:45 PM]<newmediatim> if the voice is a wandering part of the body

[7:45 PM] sandyshand is now known as the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy.
[7:45 PM] the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy has entered the room.
[7:45 PM]<glazier> The voice is sound.
[7:45 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> certainly the voice can be there, and is in a lot more titles than it was a decade ago
[7:45 PM]<mrowley> * Loss can you talk about how spectral material allows for algorithmic thinking.
[7:45 PM]<glazier> There is light, sound, and the body.
[7:46 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> nice question marilou
[7:46 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> (a good one for cayley too, i think)
[7:47 PM]<shadoof> me too ... i want to hear/see the answer to marilou ....
[7:47 PM]<glazier> Marilou, algorithmic thinking relates too the hands, as earlier. The spectral is like run time.
[7:47 PM]<glazier> "to the hands" typo
[7:47 PM]<mrowley> how does it relate to the hands?
[7:47 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> but don't you visualize beyond the code when you make it?

[7:48 PM]<shadoof> <did you all talk about hands a lot before i came in?>
[7:48 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> yes
[7:48 PM]<mrowley> maybe i missed the point
[7:48 PM]<glazier> I should say "some kinds of alg thinking". What interests me is the alg thinking that bears a relation to the manual.
[7:49 PM]<glazier> There are other forms of alg thinking that are overly belabored, like government.
[7:49 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> loss, possible to give a short example of the algo <-> hand relation?
[7:49 PM]<glazier> The real point is below the surface.
[7:50 PM]<shadoof> touching in the dark
[7:50 PM]<glazier> Sandy, the abacus, mentioned earlier.
[7:50 PM]<newmediatim> I cannot see these flowers at my feet

[7:50 PM]<glazier> It's digital.
[7:50 PM]<mIEKAL> can you write a poem on an abacus?
[7:50 PM]<shadoof> i count the flowers with my fingers
[7:51 PM]<glazier> If you project light on it.
[7:51 PM]<glazier> John gave me flowers.
[7:52 PM]<glazier> The real point is below the surface but is tangible.
[7:52 PM]<shadoof> and reached down into the darkness to bring up more for you
[7:52 PM]<mIEKAL> I feel like Darth Vadar is gonna walk in the room any minute.

[7:52 PM]<newmediatim> in your digital poetics book you discuss some particular algorithms. Are there any you have a particular fondness for, bc of their elegance or some meta quality
[7:52 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> now, what about limits in comparing the abacus to the computer?
[7:52 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> Wasn't the hand-algo addressed by F Block in “IO poetis digitalis:”
wasn't the hand-algo addressed by F. Block in “IO poetis digitalis:”
wasn't the hand-algo connection addressed by F. Block in "IO poetis digitalis" (epo 2003) too
[7:53 PM]<glazier> "capable of being perceived especially by the sense of touch"
[7:53 PM]<newmediatim> A postcard from Dorian Grey
[7:54 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> i am your father mIEKAL
[7:54 PM]<mrowley> ah.. things are becoming illuminated

[7:54 PM]<glazier> hopefully, a little
[7:55 PM]<glazier> well, light *is* falling across our faces
[7:55 PM]<newmediatim> hopefully
[7:55 PM]<mIEKAL> I'm interested in what's under the hood of your pieces Loss
[7:55 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> " "capable of being perceived especially by the sense of touch" " Loss: in a sense, the haptic/touch for you covers the visible
[7:55 PM]<mIEKAL> do you run the text permutations with Javascript?
[7:56 PM]<shadoof> and there are holes in our faces where it goes in
[7:56 PM]<mrowley> but what abuot ant colony optimization algorithms, probability and poetry? finding the shortest path to the light?
[7:57 PM]<newmediatim> what are a.c.o.a.? sound fascinating
[7:57 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> - i see emergence / self-org in the coordination of text/projection/dancer in loss' piece

[7:57 PM]<mrowley> from Wikipedia: is a probabilistic </wiki/Probability> technique for solving computational problems which can be reduced to finding good paths through graphs </wiki/Graph_%28mathematics%29>. They are inspired by the behaviour of ants </wiki/Ant> in finding paths from the colony to food.
[7:58 PM] * chrisfunkhouser has changed the subject to: ant music for light people
[7:58 PM]<mrowley> hah
[7:58 PM]<mrowley> sandy yes on emergence
[7:58 PM] * newmediatim has changed the subject to: light music for ant people
[7:59 PM]<shadoof> <we're gonna need Noah W-F and Nick Monfort in a minute ...>
[7:59 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> are they ant people?
[7:59 PM]<glazier> The ant colony is an interesting idea.
[8:00 PM]<glazier> It's also interesting that the speed of light is our upper limit.
[8:00 PM]<mrowley> it is fascinating.. that inherent order can be found in algorithms, graphs, random integers

[8:00 PM]<shadoof> an order of language?
[8:00 PM]<glazier> clumps of granite
[8:00 PM]<mrowley> is poetry random order?
[8:00 PM]<mIEKAL> hurricane debris
[8:01 PM] * the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy has changed the subject to: --0--0-->###pleeeeebouf
[8:01 PM]<newmediatim> Loss what did you have for lunch today
[8:01 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> well, or are we dealing with intrinsic orders of constructing/building -> poetics in Loss' sense -> that language mirrors/reflects in some way?

[8:02 PM]<glazier> something awesome
[8:02 PM]<glazier> I like "intrinsic orders'
[8:02 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> so, i suppose that would be an order of language, shadoof my man
[8:03 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> this is a good conversation...
[8:03 PM]<newmediatim> reflects what
[8:03 PM]<glazier> but still with the ants in mind
[8:03 PM]<shadoof> we are ants
[8:03 PM]<mIEKAL> I tried to destroy a 6 foot ant hill last month...

[8:03 PM]<mIEKAL> impossible
[8:03 PM]<shadoof> and are we bringing order to this?
[8:03 PM]<glazier> claro1
[8:03 PM]<glazier> claro!
[8:04 PM]<shadoof> clearly
[8:04 PM]<newmediatim> Clairol
[8:04 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> "reflects what": this is back to the status of light in the whole thing. i'd say the premise (gamble) of poetics is this reflection -
[8:04 PM]<shadoof> it would be impossible
[8:04 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> things are hairy now
[8:04 PM]<shadoof> to disorder our conversation
[8:04 PM]<glazier> reflection, note the pun on light rays and on thinking

[8:05 PM] * the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy has changed the subject to: <the light is here not in the chat room>
[8:05 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> If not order, I at least feel obliged - do we have more questions for Loss?
[8:05 PM]<mIEKAL> Loss never answered my very practical question
[8:05 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> perhaps repeat it?
[8:05 PM]<mIEKAL> but I think he's ignoring me
[8:06 PM]<newmediatim> LPG is code language a social practice, and if so how?
[8:06 PM]<mIEKAL> do you run the text permutations with Javascript?
[8:06 PM]<glazier> I have used both JavaScript and Java. I would never ignore you!
[8:06 PM]<newmediatim> I think he's doing a Cageyan thing
[8:06 PM]<mIEKAL> & how are the screens decided?
[8:06 PM]<mIEKAL> is it completely random
[8:07 PM]<mIEKAL> or is there some process other than that which is running

[8:07 PM]<glazier> Hmm, there are sorts of code language I find less interesting.
[8:07 PM]<newmediatim> I mean in the context of poetry
[8:07 PM]<newmediatim> or would you not distinguish betw that and other situations
[8:08 PM]<newmediatim> in a forest
[8:09 PM]<glazier> mIEKAL, it's a mix of random processes, numeric structures, and built in tricks in the strings -- sleight of hand. But very simple.
[8:09 PM]<glazier> Like in WV I explained the play of 3's and 4's.
[8:09 PM]<mIEKAL> & so the dancer is waiting for each screen to show, to know what she's doing?

[8:10 PM]<mIEKAL> & there's an aspect of unpredictability within limits
[8:10 PM]<glazier> How do you mean a social practice? I mean, specific to this question.
[8:11 PM]<glazier> mIEKAL, yes! Limits are like the boundaries of the stage.
[8:12 PM]<newmediatim> I mean, for Andrews the connection between materiality and reading and meaning are fairly explicit with regard to politics. Are you coming out of this tradition and if so what are the consequences of the introduction of another layer, ie coding, into the process. Does it change the politics
[8:12 PM]<glazier> I.e., not restrictions but the constellation in which articulates the performance.
[8:12 PM]<newmediatim> Loss, I'm not trying to put you on the spot or anything...just am curious...
[8:13 PM]<glazier> Well, it's social on several levels.
[8:13 PM]<glazier> Obviously there's the performance.
[8:13 PM]<glazier> There's the work itself i.e., interface.
[8:13 PM]<glazier> Many people stop there.
[8:13 PM]<glazier> But there's also the practice at the code level.

[8:15 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> back to questions of embodiment i.e. as where these levels open to each other / collapse -- which is also surely the social?
[8:15 PM]<glazier> This is social but not as "between-people" but as in "between a people being manual". Hence (again) the Marx pun. We are all laborers. This code is in our cells, on our fingers, and on the screen. It is all social practice but on overlapping levels.
[8:15 PM]<newmediatim> in the networked sense?
[8:16 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> network as intertwined hands
[8:16 PM]<glazier> Hmm, that's nice, Sandy.
[8:16 PM]<glazier> But labor is good.
[8:16 PM]<glazier> Would you rather open a can of beans or count the beans yourself?
[8:17 PM]<newmediatim> labor on the level of coding
[8:17 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> tim, are you wondering about what kind of politics this position would lead to?
[8:17 PM]<newmediatim> I really want to know what Loss had for lunch. It sounds interesting.

[8:18 PM]<mIEKAL> you guys are making me hungry
[8:18 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> hee hee
[8:18 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> Well, it's been about an hour and twenty minutes. I don't want to exhaust Loss...?
[8:18 PM]<newmediatim> wow, that just flew by
[8:19 PM]<mldeed> A poem in itself
[8:19 PM]<shadoof> you can't exhaust Loss
[8:19 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> I think we got at a number of things and I will make a transcript and sing it and dance to it.
[8:19 PM]<mIEKAL> this is good for him

[8:19 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> John: that was a koan. No end to loss.
[8:19 PM]<mrowley> great, thanks sandy and loss!
[8:19 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> OK, thanks very much Loss Glazier. Any last words?
[8:19 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> or rather, parting words
[8:20 PM]<glazier> I had a ham sandwich: whole wheat sourdough bread, fresh mushrooms, healthy ham, alfalfa sprouts, mixed greens, rasberry balsamic vinagrette and EV olive oil, a poem in itself.

[8:20 PM]<mIEKAL> now you've gone overboard, I'm going to eat
[8:20 PM]<mrowley> yum!
[8:20 PM]<shadoof> at 1.30 in the morning? !!
[8:20 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> as they say in italy, chow
[8:20 PM]<chrisfunkhouser> sandy- where will the transcripts be?
[8:20 PM]<glazier> Adios!
[8:20 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> I will send a link out to the leonardo list.
[8:20 PM]<newmediatim> a pleasure
[8:21 PM]<the_light_formerly_known_as_sandy> Thanks Loss.
[8:21 PM]<mrowley> adieu all
[8:21 PM]<glazier> Yes, a pleasure!
[8:21 PM]<mldeed> a bientot
[8:21 PM]<mIEKAL> la revedere
[8:21 PM]<shadoof> asever
<end transcript